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Dr Danger
22nd July 2008, 05:51 PM
Ooooo, conspiracy theories. I like those. :)

Personally I find it a little amusing that there is *apparently* such a sub-cult thing happening with L/C's.

I've had this discussion with people before, but I would still prefer a GT500 over a Lotus. Not that I would ever knock back a Lotus if someone gave it to me!

a1topdog
23rd July 2008, 10:27 PM
Dr Danger,
the Lotus Register has a site with a
locked section for members only, they are
under the allusion that the general public
will use certain information about L/Cs
to their advantage. Big wank if you
ask me, if you are a lotus fan and you cannot
see the ' DOG ' from a mile away then you
desurvive to get bitten. give me a LADA
any day!!!!!.

Toxic - you know that is not the reason for the locked sections.

The reason for the locked sections is the LCR has a fee paying membership and the website / forum costs are met by these subscriptions. The locked sections are seen as one of the benefits of joining the LCR. Its no big secret what the section are that are locked. They are the classifieds and general discussion area's where its preferred that talk about chassis numbers etc is conducted. Ask the person who finds out their chassis number has been cloned or the car they have bought is a fake if they think is all a big wank. Not all enthusiasts are expert on the mark , so I think its a bit harsh to say they deserve to get bitten.

a1topdog
23rd July 2008, 10:31 PM
Ooooo, conspiracy theories. I like those. :)

Personally I find it a little amusing that there is *apparently* such a sub-cult thing happening with L/C's.



The key word being *apparently*. People stir up this impression about LC owners , and from my experiance it couldn't be further from the truth. If you speak to any LC owners at the shows etc and they are no different from the guy who owns a Mk1 Fleet. 99% are just your average Joe.

Dr Danger
24th July 2008, 09:28 AM
Topdog. I will respectfully disagree a little bit. I do think there is a bit more of a boys club with LC folk.

Example: Why, if there is no boys club, do they have their own little Lotus section at shows? Why do they have their own dedicated website? This to me deffinately suggests a sub-cult. I see no such sub section with any other type of Mk1.

I do think it is great that people like yourself (and others here) come and mix it with us cretins. :)

I'm not trying to start a fight, just telling it as I see it.

toxicbugman
25th July 2008, 05:36 PM
a1topdog

So its preferred to talk about Chassis No etc in
closed section to protect its members from
' duds', well i ask this, 18 years ago i registered
with the LCR giving details about a LC,Chassis No
being one of them, the membership expired some time
ago, receintly i enquired about some aspect of the
car only to be told this car does NOT exist , giving
that you can buy almost all parts for a LC does that
mean there is a clone with ' correct numbers ' some
where in England and will turn up some time??
i donnt give a rats arse about that,
what i would like to know where did the
information go and who is responsible for the
security of the records ??
they gave me the short shift trying to make
me look like a prick well i donnt suffer fools gladly.!!

give me a LADA any day


\

a1topdog
25th July 2008, 06:06 PM
Hi Toxic - were you told it does not exist now (ie scrapped , stolen etc) or it never existed? If the latter I can understand where you are coming from. I'm only a member so I have no idea what goes on at a committee level , but I can only assume the records get passed from registrar to registrar.

In the early days the chassis number list was available to anyone that asked , and it was published in the QB up until about 10 years ago. (This is all before my time). My understanding is this list is now not available to anyone outside of the committee. The reason I have been given is to protect the identities of the cars on it. Are we paranoid in the UK about chassis numbers? It seems so. You only have to look at websites like the BOSS 302 registry and the Jag XK Registry and the chassis numbers are there for all to see.

The point I keep trying to make is not all LC owners should be tarred with the same brush.

toxicbugman
26th July 2008, 10:50 AM
Morning a1topdog,

if the records get past on from register to register as
you suggest it must be apparant that there are some
missing ? begs the question, there have been a number of L/C
turning up in OZ ,could it be these cars have numbers from those
missing records ? given the prices being payed for L/C.
and you are right , you donnt know what goes on at
the committee level.
the car in question arrived in Australia early 1964
its first owner sold it after one year, the next owner
was a well known Drag Racer, sold again in 1968/9
kept by next owner till 1972,last purchase was from
deceast estate and the car is still seen around Victoria
from time to time. ( and possibly driving around England ?? )

jewels
26th July 2008, 11:28 AM
topdog,
can i ask ..to the best of your knowledge
does this list of id's, chassis numbers etc. only compile of ppl/members who have given the register information or do you know if the register have some official records from Ford ?

like all known lotus cortina's made ?

garyeanderson
26th July 2008, 08:43 PM
topdog,
can i ask ..to the best of your knowledge
does this list of id's, chassis numbers etc. only compile of ppl/members who have given the register information or do you know if the register have some official records from Ford ?

like all known lotus cortina's made ?

Hi Jewels
I am not aware of any one person, group, club, Ford or Lotus that claims to know of ALL LoCorts built. The info out in public is the numbers produced at the Lotus Factory at Cheshunt. Graham Arnold then sales director has a book (Lotus Illustrated Buyers Guide) that lists these numbers as,
228 1963
536 1964
1112 1965
991 1966
I have been keeping a list of mk1 Lotus Cortinas since I bought mine in 2003, I am mostly concerned with the mk1 LoCorts that Ford Motor Company brought into the U.S.
According to Graham Arnold, Ford acknoledged bringing 186 Lotus Cortina's into the country in late 1965 through 1966 when the mk1 was phased out. From what I have read, there was only one mk2 Lotus Cortina actully built at Lotus, In November 1966 Lotus moved from Cheshunt the there new factory and they didn't build any there. All other mk2's were assembled at Ford. Total mk1 production is thought to be around the 3300 mark, the number of LHD LoCorts may be as high as 700, the highest build nuber I have is 658 on LHD car and the highest RHD build number is 2477 both are July 1966 built. Productions may have continued until September but I don't have any info on cars built in August or after.
I started tracking these cars as I couldn't get any production info anywhere and I wanted to know more about the production at Lotus.

Gary

toxicbugman
27th July 2008, 10:10 AM
Jewels
The LCR does have records from various
scources but they rely on owners to
give information about the L/C they
own so that these cars can be refured
to in the future if they come up for sale.
so if you give them Chassis & engine
numbers you need to be sure that this
information does not get lost for it is
astounding to what lengths people
go to to rebuild a L/C and pass it off.

zombie289
27th July 2008, 11:36 AM
What toxic talks about happens all the time in the classic car world, I know of a case regarding a 66 Shelby GT350 mustang sold to a guy in OZ that was a fake, the fool that bought the car checked its VIN with the Shelby registry AFTER he bought it only to find a car in Hawaii had a matching VIN.

So im sure that there are a few Locort owners out there who have unknowingly bought re-shelled cars (IMO a re-shelled car is a clone) that have LC ID tags/VINS and Im sure people have sold such cars full well knowing they are not gennie Locorts.

And I agree that people will go to extremes to clone these cars as they are worth so much more than a 2dr GT.

Oh and my other $.02.... The Locort guys ARE definetely a boys club, witnessed it first hand in 2 countries.

jewels
27th July 2008, 11:43 AM
yes zombie your right

there always seems to be more GT falcons phase 3 than were made :D

jewels
27th July 2008, 12:03 PM
so this begs the question...

if i was looking to purchase a lotus corty and contacted the lotus cortina register would they tell me the info i wanted to know (if they had it) being as that im not a member?

or is this info only available for current members not potential members ?

and another....

i have the chassis, body numbers etc etc. what would they say in reply?

what information could you expect about those numbers?

would there be a recommendation about it as well?

oh and i just remembered would the keeper of this info also have a list of

names and address of previous owners?

coz here in australia that is against the law no information about the name

of any previous owner or address or any contact information can be kept

or given under any circumstances from govt road authority or otherwise.

this all comes under our strict privacy act.

jewels
27th July 2008, 12:13 PM
so toxic, say for instance you and your previous membership with them.... under our

laws they cant do this..
is that how anyone else see it ?

BTW: i mean no bad or disrespect to the LCR what so ever

and this could be any classic car club not just LCR :)

but it does raise some

interesting questions

toxicbugman
27th July 2008, 02:58 PM
Jewels,

the register relies on members to provide
as much info as possible ,eg previous
owners ,locations ,reg No, etc, most of
which is still available as they donnt have
laws similar to us reguarding privacy.

the poms did not destroy all their reg,
( MOT) like here in Oz, you can still
find a lot of previous information
going back years if you have a reg No.




So if you were to give them the numbers etc,
and if they have the information in their books
they could if they wished confurm that the car
existed, the problem is that the information
given to them could be questionable as to
the originality of the car ,the other problem
is that they will also make some statememt
themselves as to the originality of the car based
on someone seeing the car or the car being
known to the members.

If you are in the market for a L/C i suggest
you know what to look for as here in Oz there
are some cars that could be classified as clones
and little beauty's to say the least, one is an
absolute ripper.

The most vexing question is what makes a L/C
A , ORIGINAL
B , GENUINE
C , L/C

garyeanderson
27th July 2008, 08:58 PM
Jewels,

If you are in the market for a L/C i suggest
you know what to look for as here in Oz there
are some cars that could be classified as clones
and little beauty's to say the least, one is an
absolute ripper.

The most vexing question is what makes a L/C
A , ORIGINAL
B , GENUINE
C , L/C

I agree with Toxic, there are some very nice clones around. A clone is usually built by an owner that has a bit of time and not so much money, It is built up by the person to enjoy and has a pay as you go mentality. Most times these folk are open about what they have built and are quite proud of there work, problems occur when the car is sold on to a second or third owner and some one forgets a bit of history (conveniently or not), and now it becomes not what the owner thinks (or wants) it to be. This is almost a fake, Fakes are built with the intention to defraud another person and take their money. They are often made up from a log book which says its one thing and the parts may or may not tell you another. In the case of the Lotus Cortina, it happens do to the fact that early in their life they became disposable for several reasons, Rust is a big one, accidents another, and in the U.S. they were seen as a cheap way to get a Twin Cam engine and gearbox for a car with more value (formula car, Elan, etc). As a result not a lot of genuine Lotus Cortina's Survive and hence the new found value. A genuine LoCort is one that was assembled at Cheshunt at the Lotus Factory. Mk2's were assembed at Ford. (This is my opinion) these are not Lotus Cortina's they are Twin Cam Ford Cortina's.

Gary

p.s. If the 3300 mk1 LoCort number is right I would guess that if one third still exist that is a big number, My gut feeling that there are 500 to 800 real, genuine Lotus Cortina Mk1's left in existance. Of that number there may be only 300 to 400 that are licenced and registered that actually can drive.

Bertil
28th July 2008, 03:01 PM
I guess Sweden is unique, in many ways. Here the law is that all information is public! I can send an SMS from my cellphone with a reg number of a car and 2 seconds later I know the name of the owner, in which city he lives (not street adress) and if the car is road legal or not. I can go into a web site and ask for previous owners of a car, I will get the present and the two before the present in a couple of minutes in fax or email. If I need all previous owners I have to make a phonecall and wait for a week or so.
It?s called the "principle of public access to official records", and that is the law in Sweden.

What do you think of that...?

Edit:
Oh I forgot, all the above mentioned services are free of charge, that is the law to...

a1topdog
30th July 2008, 05:28 AM
Toxic is (partly) right (man it pains me to say it !!) the LCR records are made up of information collated from information given by members over the years , but the LCR also has part copies of the Lotus Day books. These are the manual ledgers kept by Lotus showing the VIN numbers , the day the car was built and where it was dispatched to. It is well known that Lotus did some creative accounting and it cannot be assumed that these Day Book records are 100 pct complete. I also beleive the LCR do not have copies of every Day Book Record as I think some of the later records were distroyed by Lotus. So If you find an LC , just because the LCR do not have a record of its chassis number it does not mean it is not genuine.

To answer Jewels question about what could you expect from the LCR if you made an enquiry about a car if you was a non member - usually they will confirm if the chassis number correct for a genuine LC , but they would not authenticate the car unless a committee member had viewed it.
You may also get a reply saying it had been on the records for X amount of years. The LCR should not tell you who the previous owners were as this is covered by the data protection act , but if your name is on the reg document you can apply (for GBP5) to the DVLA (our reg authority) for a list of the previous owners details going back to 1973. Before that the vehicle records are kept by the local councils. If your car still has the original reg plate you can cross ref the first three letter to a list of councils and if you are very lucky they may still have some info on the pre 73 owners.

jewels
31st July 2008, 07:34 PM
thanx for that nice answer a1 :)

nomad
31st July 2009, 03:35 PM
....................... but what records does the Lada Register keep? Are they buried in the KGB's archives?:stir

toxicbugman
31st July 2009, 04:02 PM
....................... but what records does the Lada Register keep? Are they buried in the KGB's archives?:stir

Who cares !! give me a Lada any day. :o

terrysecker
15th September 2009, 04:16 AM
Hi Gary ,
I have just joined and was reading your thread ,you say that the highest build number you have found to date is 658 , well i live in the UK and I own 659 which was imported in 1994 together with two others by Historic Motorsport Ltd ( David Sutton ) you may of heard of them ? Anyway all three were built up into FIA rally cars . If you want more info contact me on terrysecker@btinternet.com