Adjustable MKII Control arms.

[MK2CA18]

I am looking to fabricate a set of adjustable control arms to give my MKII some negative camber. I will be modifying a set of standard arms by cutting them in half and using a rose joint at the crossmember end with a threaded section and then welding that onto the original outer halfs which take the sway bar and ball joint, simliar to Jewels GT, or the Miltons products.
Can any body tell me if once the arms are adjusted out to give me approx 2-3 of neg camber will I still be able to locate my KMAC sway bar or will it need to be modified to suit. I have been getting some conflicting answers during my research so far.
Thanks for any help.

[Paul T]

Cutting and welding of forged steel components is not a good idea and will not be considered legal for road use by most engineers, nor will rose joints.

Why not re-drill the cross member and use adjustable tops?

Regarding the sway bar it should be re-bent any time the car is altered from bog standard. If all that was done was to lower a car 2" you have moved the sway bar pick ups out and have therefore introduced preload to the bar which will increase spring rate.

[MK2CA18]

At this stage the car is for track only use. I am already using KMAC adjustable strut tops, with them lowered all the way over I am still only able to get 0 camber.

To bend the sway bar can this be done cold in a press or does it have to be heated and then retreated?

[30psi mk2 cortina]

Why not re-drill the cross member and use adjustable tops?


This creates its own problems. You gain more negative camber but create bump steer problems as the pivot points between the steering tie rods no longer align with the pivot point of the lower control arms.

[Paul T]

Which is easily fixed by cranking the steering arms.

[madflow]

Just as welding is frowned on to cast steel components ---so is heating and bending them--any signs of that on those pieces would get you a fail from the engineer --wouldn t it--or could it be disguised? personally i would weld the cast steel before i would heat and bend---but not sway bars and steering arms--too much room for error ..someone Must have an engineered solution to this ---use capri struts --they have greater KPI angle--will allow huge amount of negative --maybe too much---these cars have been raced for ages somebody has down /solved this .

[Paul T]

Sway bars are made from spring steel, in order to form the bar to shape it's heated and bent and left to air cool so if I follow the same process what is the issue? been doing it for 12 years never had a failure.

As for steering arms I heat and crank them, crack test, heat treat and re-cracked test, been doing it for 12 years never had failure yet. When made they hot forged and that's it if there is flaw too bad.

If you attempt to bend either spring or forged steel cold beyond it elastic limit save yourself the time and put it in the bin before you start.

As far as camber goes I can get 61/2 degrees with re-drilled crossmember using original tca's and adjustable tops in the original mounting holes. Never required more than 5 degrees to date for optium tyre condition.

As for KPI or SAI as it's now refered to all standard Ford Cortina/Escort/Capri suffer from too much and if your really having a go you take it out of the strut.

Your right it has all been sorted before.

[30psi mk2 cortina]

hmm still havent followed me.

Lets say for arguments sake..... that the distance between the two bolt holes in the cross member.... IE distance between both lower control arms left side to right side is 60cm.
Now the distance of the two holes on the drag link where the tie rods bolt into adjacent to the cross member pivot points will be the same 60cm also.

If you redrill the cross member and position the holes out further to gain more negative camber you will be left with pivot points around lets say 65cm (2.5cm a side further apart). but the steering draglink is still 60cm.


what happens now is when you are driving in a straight line or anywhere for that matter is that when you hit a bump or the load the car so the suspension travels the lower control arm will swing through a different arc to that of the steering links as you have now altered the piviot points that were once in unison and in line.
This is called bump steer.

[madflow]

What regulations or rules do you have to follow in your class regarding the suspension?--a friends mk2 was an ex circut car ( now a road car again) , had a tension strut set up ,using some parts from the escort kits available, and fabrication of the rest, the sway bar /arb was adapted with adjustable drop links down onto the original TCA .Top mounts were sperical joint type but not offset ,front coilsprings were the small diameter adjustable type,,very short and high rate , you coudn t drive it on a public road , apart from the legal issue , the front end would hop and skip over bumps/hollows.He never experienced bump steer as most venues are very flat.

[Paul T]

Follow you no problems.

By measuring the bump steer with a bump steer gauge and altering the bump steer by way of cranking the steering arms I have control of what I end up with. Same goes for ackerman.

So what happens now is when I'm driving anywhere and hit a bump or load the car the bent steering arm will move through arc I want it to therefore giving me the bump steer I choose.

[MK2CA18]

As far as camber goes I can get 61/2 degrees with re-drilled crossmember using original tca's and adjustable tops in the original mounting holes. Never required more than 5 degrees to date for optium tyre condition.

As for KPI or SAI as it's now refered to all standard Ford Cortina/Escort/Capri suffer from too much and if your really having a go you take it out of the strut.

Your right it has all been sorted before.

Could you tell me how far outward you go when you redrill the xmember? To get adjustment up to 5 degrees would be plenty for me.

[MK2CA18]

I was having another look at things last night and would like to get peoples thoughts on this method to create negative camber. I hope I can explain this so it makes sense, but its a fairly simple idea.

If I was to machine up a plate that would sit between the bottom of the strut and the steering arm which would offset the strut outwards rather than bolt directly on top, this would create negative camber without having to modify any of the other suspension/steering components.

[Paul T]

Spacer are used between the ball joint/ steering arm and strut on a number of cars but for altering bump steer and roll centre.

It would not be advisable to move the ball joint loading off centre.

We are only allowed to move the pick up points 25mm and to do properly on a mk1 crossmember is quite a bit of work, mk2 isn't as involved as bumpstops were deleted. You will not get 5 degrees with pick up point only.

[30psi mk2 cortina]

MK2CA18 (MK@CA18) ....
There really isnt an easy way to get more than 1 deg neg camber without adjustable bottom arms. or spending a decent amount of coin. I have -1.5 deg with std bottom arms. Until i put my adjustable bottom arms on this is as far as i can go full stop.

No disrespect to paul T as he has been around and know his stuff but i would be very hessitant to go about coaxing negative camber out of the car by any means other than the strut tops or adjustable bottom arms.
Doing otherwise will and can be very tricky creating other problems along the way.

[madflow]

What did you go for in the end ? how about Paul T s idea and re-angle the struts you have , have you looked at Alan Dent s stuff he makes for using sierra struts in older fords , heres a pic of his kit (alachi 57)

[MK2CA18]

This weekend was the last track day for a few months but as its 35 at mallala I wont be taking the car out. I haven't looked into Alan Dents stuff, yet.
At this stage I am going to check with a fabrication workshop to get the ok to weld the control arms and some advise on what material they would like used and then I was going to begin fabrication of adjustable arms. Also just trying to get an ok on and heating and resetting the sway bar ion the method Paul T stated. Will hopefully be modifiy the front struts to a coil over setup and be looking at my options to stiffen the rear, trying to do some research on the fabrication of an antidive setup before the next track season starts also.

[madflow]

pics a bit small ,it s from TEAM DEVILLE , its spaces down the anti roll-bar but this one also offsets it forwards so creating some castor--something i would maybe need to do as well--simple to make and differant offsets would be easy to swop in.

[MK2CA18]

Little bit of an update for anyone who is following. I have been in contact with Alan Dent who can supply a set of modiified escort control arms for a decent price so once I have taken some measurements as requested by him I will be ordering a set.

He also offers Spax shocks for a reasonable price, I hadn't heard of Spax or Gaz before I started looking into old cortina stuff - anyone have any thoughts, opinions on either?

[noisymime]

Will hopefully be modifiy the front struts to a coil over setup and be looking at my options to stiffen the rear, trying to do some research on the fabrication of an antidive setup before the next track season starts also.

Here's the home made 'anti-dive' and castor setup on our Mk2 incase you're thinking of DIY'ing it:
7950
7951
7953

Basically just some square tube steel shaped as needed.

[30psi mk2 cortina]

whats a decent price? are they adjustable rose joint jobs?

[Paul T]

Little bit of an update for anyone who is following. I have been in contact with Alan Dent who can supply a set of modiified escort control arms for a decent price so once I have taken some measurements as requested by him I will be ordering a set.

He also offers Spax shocks for a reasonable price, I hadn't heard of Spax or Gaz before I started looking into old cortina stuff - anyone have any thoughts, opinions on either?

Thoughts, a MK2 Cortina TCA is twice as long as an Escort arm so that will be interesting.

Spax over the years have had a bad name in motorsport but may have lifted there game, GAZ are the greatest waste money you will ever spend.

[MK2CA18]

Spax over the years have had a bad name in motorsport but may have lifted there game, GAZ are the greatest waste money you will ever spend.

Any recommendations?

[MK2CA18]

Here's the home made 'anti-dive' and castor setup on our Mk2 incase you're thinking of DIY'ing it:

Basically just some square tube steel shaped as needed.

Thanks, what size is that tube? I was going to make a brace between the two rails and make a centre mount as well, seems to be what other track cortys are running. The threads in my rails are striped also so I have to prolly weld some new mounts on also.


whats a decent price? are they adjustable rose joint jobs?

95 Pound, postage bumps it up another 60 odd pound tho. To me seems worth it to save myself some messing around. Yes adjustable rose joints.

[noisymime]

Thanks, what size is that tube?

Off the top of my head we moved the mount 20mm down and 20mm forward, but I'd have to measure it again to be sure. With it in, the sway bar sits very close to flat, but its still not perfectly horizontal, so you could probably go with a slightly larger tube.



95 Pound, postage bumps it up another 60 odd pound tho. To me seems worth it to save myself some messing around. Yes adjustable rose joints.

At 90 pound I'd possibly be interested in a set as well if you want to lower the postage.

[madflow]

The front strut choise for most is bilstein, but requires the strut to be sent off and built up to requirement for bound and rebound valving ,length/hight spring choise and thats only the basics of it ,so it will be expensive but they are rebuild- able and can be reset. Spax are a good road shock, which can take some limited competion use ,although they are top adjustable its not really valved for track--but they do come as an insert so thats a savings.GAz are good units but again for road use --they (the company ) seem to have evolved from the" survivors" of LEDA ,but didnt quite get to that level for awhile.AVO are another one about same pricing as an insert, to SPAX , also a popular road /mild competion as an insert--and adjustable, they prefer to build you up a unit based on your/ exchange casing--so pricey but good.For what you are going to be doing ,is a steep learning curve and will become costly ,start with spax and drive your way up from there as you prove /improve you own set-up.Im sure that will have given Alan Dent the mk2 cortina measurements for your tca s---have you gone for the compression strut layout ?

[Paul T]

Any recommendations?

The reality will always be you get what you pay for.

That said there is both a drop in Koni and Bilstein insert that are not much more than GAZ. I'll dig up the pricing tonight.

[Paul T]

Forgot to mention the single biggest issue regarding shocks - TRAVEL.

Most shocks can not cope with being lowered to the height that a competition type car will run, you will have more droop than know what do with and if your lucky 1" compresion.

[Paul T]

As for anti dive I make and sell a kit.
7986

$120 gets 3 new clamps, 3 urethane bushes in either 19, 22, 24, 5051T6 box and 3 6061 T6 inserts. This is an undrilled price so it can be suited to your needs regarding sump/apron clearance and bar offset.

Easiest way to resolve your thread problems is to heli coil back to 5/16 or drill and tap 3/8".

[MK2CA18]

For any1 interested TCA's recieved from Alan Dent. These are his most expensive items which give the largest amount of adjustment, and also can be adjusted without removal. They were 150 pound.


http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff375/trevthedrunk/TCA.jpg

[corsair]

Both Spax and Gaz are good, of the two I would go for Gaz. Always found Spax very hard at softest settings. My son has Gaz on his opel Manta a mate has them on his supercharged ST170 powered Mk1 Paul

[madflow]

Quite a reasonable price for the TCA s when you see that standard ones when they come up for sale are starting at 200 uk , i believe Alan Dent can refurbish the std ones as ones as well if needed,i read that you have stripped the threads in the chassis mount---common problem my car was the same and had been helicoiled some time ago. But once water gets in thats it ,it happens all over again when you need to remove them--snapping off is the worst , so fill your rails with waxoyl or similar , going oversize is the better way but make sure to use high quality taps as the welded-in nut is hardsteel. Welding in the mount is fine but makes for later experimentation more difficult, ok for a road car were settings are more or less fixed for life, i stripped out a helicoil on mine undoing a rusted in bolt--it wound out perfectly attached to the bolt , the situation improved when retapping ----the nut sheared off inside.Its possible to get round this problem fairly easily and solve it from happening again

[MK2CA18]

i read that you have stripped the threads in the chassis mount---common problem my car was the same and had been helicoiled some time ago.

I'll just clear up that I didn't strip the threads - bought the car already like that :) someone has tried to weld in a stud which horribly dodgey...
Thanks for suggestions on how to repair.