Front end 'issues'. The saga continues...

[Dr Danger]

Took the Cortina ('the pig' as it is now known) to a suspension guru yesterday in the hope that he could dial out the shake in the front end and diagnose why it wants to spear off the road under breaks...

He came up with a LONG list of things.

1) The left shock insert is loose in the strut.
2) The front wheels don't locate on anything but the studs - Can't think of why I didn't think of that, especially after the rears were done - durrr.
3) The front end needs to be lower.
4) Needs way more camber. Fair enough, but short of moving the inner TCA mounts out or bending the strut, there isn't alot of options here as the strut tops are already maxed out. The tire is almost rubbing the strut anyway so looks like I'm rodgered with that one. A further lowering will help for sure but isn't going to get -2 degrees for me.
5) He suspects the top strut mount bearings are binding as it doesn't center like it should and there is really nothing else that could be explaining it. A couple of 4 or 5mm spacers should fix that.
6) The front springs are binding as they are WAY to soft - fair call, I've hated them for a while now. Up from 115lb to something near 200lb.
7) Anti-dive kit by way of lowering the front swaybar mounts?
8) The diff pinion angle is rubbish and needs to be lowered to about -1 degree or so.
9) Some form of anti-tramp setup was recommended, like a flipped spring clamped on top of the front of the full leaf. The last two are fair enough, I've wanted to do them for a while.
10) There is a jiggered caliper on there thus explaining why it wants to spear off the road under brakes. Great...
11) A 4 or 5 link kit...

Okay, so I threw the last one in there for fun. But one day it will happen.

He couldn't dial out the shake in the front completely as there is still something allowing it to tow in and out rapidly. He simply said to remove the steering box, throw it as far as possible, and fit a rack. I personally like the idea. Before everyone jumps up and down saying the engineer wont like it, his solution for not changing the steering geometry was to fit a short rack (perhaps from a Suzuki hatch or similar?) behind the crossmember, and then hook it up to whatever. If it was done properly, I don't see too many issues with that? Coments?

So old Al has a veritable shiteload of work to do before the car becomes anywhere near safe, let alone something drivable that can be thrown at corners with confidence. Something the darn thing was intended for in the first place. Grrrr. So I'm a little disenchanted right now, however, some of those things can be sorted reasonably quickly and cheaply. Others like the calipers (the most important bits) and the rack cannot be fixed cheaply.

Cars huh. Who'd have em'?

[jewels]

who was this suspension guru al ?

[Dr Danger]

Guy called Glenn at Centerline Suspension in Thomastown. I'm fairly inclined to believe most of the stuff he suggested. Factory had lots of nice things in it like Luke Youldens Supercar, the workshops 20B powered sports saloon or whatever the hell it was, some other assorted race stuff as well as numerious other customer cars.

The evidence for the soft springs and the loose shock and so on was clearly visible and he picked it straight away as well as the pinion angle and stuff like that. The rack stuff is a totally separate issue as far as I'm concerned as your cars with steering boxes do not suffer whatever is going on with my car. So something is still very amiss, but at least four of the things mentioned above need to be sorted before further 'differential diagnoses' (medical doctor speak) can be performed...

[jewels]

has geoff ever driven it when this 'pullin' occurs?

the springs are still standard arnt they al?

have the calipers been overhauled? coz if it pulls to the left under braking its brake related

oh
and did it do the same when you had smaller width tyres on the front?

[Dr Danger]

No to all of the above Jewels.

As far as I know, Geoff has never even driven the car as such, let alone when the 'pullin' occurs... :)

Springs are 20% uprated which, as the guy correctly pointed out, is 20% over @#%& all. :) His words, not mine...

It pulls really hard to the right under moderate braking but then kinda clears up he reckoned. I have not been brave enough to really stomp on the brakes when they behave like that (bigger goolies on back order), but he said the right locks way before the left at any rate so suspects a sticky caliper. I tend to believe it is a sticky caliper because it never did it before I put the new calipers on after I snapped that other one.

I never drove it with smaller tyres on the front. Well, I did, but only one time from Ballarat to Geelong about 4 years ago now.

An engine looking for a car it was described as (again correctly). Harsh perhaps, but true.

[geoff]

to much info is a
dangerous thing
ive heard it all before
it isnt hard to get it right
as its one of the most simple
front ends ever made

[Dr Danger]

Where is there too much info here? The list is so long because the car is so rooted.

It's not really, but I am just considerably pissed off with it right now so everything seems a bit too much. And I haven't got the dosh to throw at it to fix it up. I have always thought the front springs were too soft and it was too high at the front. The camber was basically zero, so lowering it a bit more might help? Frigged if I know really. I'm just over the whole thing right now.

[geoff]

20% of what need to do
corner weights to get a base
line to start with first then choose
the spring rate (static) at the ride
height you want then the progresive
rate as the spring loads and unloads
itself lightweight cars are easy to get
wrong because of minimal weight transfer
anything under 1100kgS antidive is another
isue i dont agree on completly if you stop the
car transfering its weight to the front under
brakes the fronts will just lock up just keep in mind
its all a compromise 300hp or more in a car that
weighs 1000kgs mmmm all sounds to familier

[Dr Danger]

Yeh, I understand BUT, regardless, the springs are too soft at 115lb. They have obviously been bottoming out as there are rust 'rings' (for lack of a better term) on the top and bottoms of the coils from where the paint has been worn off. The front of the car flops into a corner because it's so soft in the springs (before the roll bar has had a chance to kick in) while the ass end sits nice. It dives like a bastard under brakes too and all these things are pointing toward some very soft springs regardless of corner weight calculations or whatnot.

I also understand from riding bike and stuff that a certain amount of weight transfer is a good thing, but the car shouldn't squat almost to the point of bottoming just under brakes alone. Which it does! I don't think that there is any need to go stupid with an anti-dive setup either, but I also don't think it could hurt to get the swaybar a little more level than what it is now.

Getting into progressive spring rates is another thing completely and something I have not read up about so I'm willing to be guided somewhat in this regard.

I'd be happy right now just to sort the front end to the stage that 1) it pulls up in a straight line 2) it doesn't shake so much under brakes that it rips the wheel out of my hands 3) I'm confident that nothing will break and 4) it not to handle like a bucket of mash potato.

It all needs to be sorted perfectly before I even think about it having anywhere near 300hp. Basically I feel like throwing the complete front end away and starting from scratch. Back to the drawing board so to speak. The original front end with adjustable nothing was better than what's under there now.

And if it's not that hard, why the f&$k can't I get it right?!?!?! Hmmmm?

Arrrr, now I just need a beer to chill out for a while. It's making me angry. Pity I aint got any...

[geoff]

al seems like comunication breakdown
this issue has never been looked at with
any importance on my part i know we have
spocken about this issue but i have no idea what
the car is doing when you drive it i now know that
it dives the front into the ground when braking and
pulls to one way i now have half a clue
ps (when ya get the beer and manage to chill )
eat something shit did i just say that

[Dr Danger]

It's just been a continual frustration right from the outset with this car. If it hasn't been one thing it's been another. VERY infruriating lemme tell ya.

All of the suspension people I have taken it to have been total chumps until now. I think the guy I took it to Saturday was pretty on the ball with all the things he said. I already knew about the front spring issue but I thought it was spearing right under brakes because of the wheel alignment, not from the calipers. He plucked the 200lb spring figure out of thin air for the spring rates so I wouldn't go reading into that too much.

He picked up the loose strut insert and also the possibility of the top strut mount bearing binding up somehow so I think I need to check that out a bit further also. I seem to remember we had some issues with the k-mac strut tops when they first went in. Perhaps there is some residual screw up with them? Who knows...

Still got me jiggered why it shakes so bad under brakes but like the man said, I gotta sort some of that other stuff out first before investigating that bit any further. As of now almost everything under the the front, except one ball joint, should be practially new, but I will put the other ball joint in and I am even tempted to put some of those new heavy duty tie rods on just to eliminate that bit totally.

I think two rebuilt calipers will fix the spearing off the road issue but from memory that wont be a cheap excercise. Typical of my luck. Not one person in the game has EVER had an issue with any of those calipers sticking... Grrrr.

Mmmm, I skipped the beer (couldn't face driving the pig today) but I did cook a nice satay and eat it. What's satay? Well, it's meat on a skewer, in peanut sauce and grilled... :) For all those that love The Castle as much as me...

[jewels]

al :)
its probably a combination of things
each contributing

let geoff or you take him for a spin so he can see this typical 'pullin'

then start to eliminate possible reasons

most of the things suggested can be checked by you without expense

caliper overhauls are only expensive if pistons need to be replaced

start with th obvious first :)

[Dr Danger]

Yes, I suspect so Jewels.

The silly thing is there is nothing on the car now that hasn't been replaced or checked out. Okay, so one of the new calipers is dodgy. I hope I have enough pistons between the 16 I own to get 8 good ones... I thought the seal kits for those things were quite expensive because there are so many of them? VERY happy to stand corrected at this stage.

Yeh, after I calmed down a little I realised that most of the things are free/cheap to check/fix, except for the camber and spring issues. And even springs aren't expensive.

I did start with the obvious, that's what's so frustrating! :)

[jewels]

thats good
it seems you are a little 'chilled' now :)

[Dr Danger]

Gotta have a little hissy fit every now and then don't you really? Not normal otherwise.

Good thing the cars got a bit more squirt now anyway.

Even if it can't slow down...

Easy solution - bull bar. :)

[jewels]

hehehe LOL

thats the attitude al :D

[Dr Danger]

Yeh, I don't drive with a lot of brakes anyway. :)

[geoff]

its good to see you smile again
al :) have you ever changed the
inserts ; if so (what did you replace
them with) 2nd thing .brake calipers
not expensive to fix .just ask the
man at ftv extreme . ps.just move the comodore so i can
get the gemini out.then tell them there dreaming.
anyway what is it with wogs and money; :)hihihihihi

[samm.71]

G'day Dr. Danger - for what it is worth from a complete stranger, I can vouch for Glenn at Centerline without reservation. I don't know about the last 10 years (I moved to WA) but you only had to go to a club race day at Winton or any other venue to see what seemed like 50% of cars with Centerline Suspensions stickers all over them. He was a mate of my uncle Arthur who got me into cars via Isuzu Belletts, and Glenn was also a Bellett man; much brain picking was inflicted on Glenn in Arfa's shed. This all led to much modified cars with up to 4 degrees of neg (track use, 1 1/2 to 2 for road) volvo calipers on Harrop disks etc. etc. Best handling cars I've driven - still!!! He did a quick strut bend, springs and Koni front and rear on a Corolla of Uncle Arse's that I ended up owning; handled better than any Corolla panel van had a right to. Same with several other Centerline cars I drove. If he appeared to pluck 200lb springs for your Cortina out of thin air, believe that to be good advice - he has have been doing this stuff very seriously for many many years......please excuse my raving; I have only recently rediscovered my passion for cars. I'm an ex mechanic that left the game 9 years ago, and other than working on a few cars for friends and family, went bike mad (road and dirt) motorbike that is, leaving the hot cars behind. Came across a '66 440 auto via a workmate 6 months ago and have not been the same since! Gone mad on the net, ebay for parts, nothing on telly and down the shed....lovin' it! Have a second manual donor car with rotten body from the same bloke, GT remote shifter, twin 40mm webers etc. Want it to be a "period" or sympathetic hotty. If it ends up handling half as good as our best Belletts, I'll be a happy man. Sort your calipers and back to Centreline I reckon. Best of luck.

[jewels]

hello and welcome samm71

thanx for the inside info and background on centreline :)

dont get us wrong we are not criticizing him just trying to calm down dr danger a bit

as this has only compounded his 'car troubles' of late ....

[zues]

As an outsider and knowing no real technical shit. http://www.cortina-mk1classifieds.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif The thing that struck me as the key issue in all this is springs!! Get your self a decent set of springs and while your at it new gas shocks all round and see what happens after that. Good springs and shockers should stop all the dive and a lot of the poor handling. Do up the WHOLE front end, not just part of it! The break caliper issue is minor and easy fixed.

[samm.71]

No worries Jewels, thanks for the welcome. Dr Danger did sound abit emotional, and no beers in the fridge!
I almost teared up myself talking about the good old days......as I said though, I'm having a ball learning about these Cortinas and playing with my new project. Great website by the way, well done!

[Dr Danger]

Samm7, good stuff. I honestly thought that Glenn knew what he was talking about. He said he used to set up some race Mk1's back in the day and he just seemed to be right on the ball with what he was saying. Good to have someone to back first thoughts.

The car has just been so frustrating right from when it went back on the road a couple of years ago that I spat it, had a hissy fit, and took it to a proper suspension place. The parts that went into the front end should have made it handle really good but it just wasn't to be. Partly some dodgy advice from some supposed 'experts' in Geelong and partly my own fault I guess.

You picked a great car to rediscover some passion. I was/am a bike guy also.

So welcome.

[Dr Danger]

New gas inserts have been in there from the start. That's is (yet again) the thing that's been so frustrating, the WHOLE front end (basically) was new. We missed a dodgy ball joint and the new one reduced the severity by half, but other that that, everything is practically new. It just got beyond me and therefore the trip to the guru.

I'm now thinking of converting to a 2 stroke.

Nothing like the sound of a 2 stroke motor on full throttle!

[jewels]

samm thanx for the nice comments :)

dr danger
go the big bore 2 strokes !!
love em

[geoff]

come on now al there is
no water in bonidoon :)

[Dr Danger]

Touche my good man.

[StReTcH]

KTM 300 EXC E ;)
Bultaco are back in production and they're building some monster two strokes!
(Tyre frying, neck snapping,rip your arms off stuff.)

[jewels]

electric leg i hope

[Dr Danger]

Your posty bike might need an electric leg soon! The way your foot is going...

Yes Timmy. Very yes!

[jewels]

Your posty bike might need an electric leg soon! The way your foot is going...



yes thats very good al :) you may be right...

[Dr Danger]

Snapped another right hand caliper clean off the car last night... Put a substantial dent in the strut tube this time too. So, looking at short term to get it drivign again to get 1 caliper, reco it and the other one, slap em back on and then get it home.

Moderate term (2 months or so): Buy new strut.
Buy adjustable spring platforms & springs
Buy Hopper stoppers kit
Fit above parts
Profit???